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Sanderson_FIN



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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:54 am

I wouldn't call us military tacticians.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:55 am

Sanderson_FIN wrote:
I wouldn't call us military tacticians.

We're not, but you can still apply the thought process and broad concepts applied to real warfare to a game.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:20 am

_spunk_ wrote:
for some reason your confusing real life with a game...... id rather get beat in agme by fighting then be a lame arse and run around all over the place
this has become kinda stupid. if the kids dont want to know the "art of war" fk em. just let them sit pretty with their immobile civs and their thumbs up there azzes.

my thing is, i apply alot of real life stuff to this "game" and tbh it makes a huge difference. it doesnt keep it just a "game" after that. the more movement/stratagy the more real life workings of the game appear. you guys just are stuck in this ill sit with 100pop military and see if i can micro my cannons better. so freaking gay, and then when they get flanked or movement happens they never play you again. i just love the thinking around here.

maybe you didnt notice, but the fin vs uofa game posted. the difference in win or lose was clearly shown by sandy. flank, move, out micro with multiple areas.

maybe you guys like to fight with the "whole" army at one spot, but its not the way to win unless there is a civ advatage. which all you guys call all civs op so ports win cuz thats all you guys play. ports is the op of the non op.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:39 am

somehow u come up with bs again . u confusing flanking with running around there totally different flanking is being clever running about isnt . i dont care what u say or what bs u want to come up with to try and justify running around as being "skilled". i aint gunna waste hours in game chasing some fruitcake about who cant play the game id rather just quit and stop wasteing my time.

and if u wanna run about swinging your dick attacking building's being a clueless cunt then FU
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:17 am

_spunk_ wrote:
somehow u come up with bs again . u confusing flanking with running around there totally different flanking is being clever running about isnt . i dont care what u say or what bs u want to come up with to try and justify running around as being "skilled". i aint gunna waste hours in game chasing some fruitcake about who cant play the game id rather just quit and stop wasteing my time.

and if u wanna run about swinging your dick attacking building's being a clueless cunt then FU

I understand that clueless players who run just to run, without any real goal or strategy, make running look stupid and "noob", but I don't mean that kind of movement and mobility.

I don't think running about for the sake of running about is truly an effective way to win, strategically it makes no sense if they're any good at defence, but a shift at the right time, say from the outside of the natives to someone's base walls, can allow you different strategic opportunities, like the ability to disorient and confuse players by splitting and pushing both, forcing an opponent to move back to stop you, etc.

When I harp on about strategy, tactics and mobility, I'm talking about thinking things out from all angles, sometimes you need to just be the single-out fighter to distract someone, sometimes you need to be the one to make your team move and shift the battle.

GNRE's running players, however "lame" their tactics and strategy might seem, are playing extremely well and have absolutely tight team coordination. Moving and shifting, with the precision that they pull it off with, isn't a skilless strategy, while it doesn't require as much micromanagement, the amount of coordination and strategy it requires is practically the same as being an extremely good micro player.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:23 pm

pi whats hard to say on vent lets switch and attack so and so wall's.? there nothing skillfull about it at all. i dont understand how u think thats a skill in it own right......... thats just a normal thing people will do. but what gnre do is run around the map building up doing nothing making the game fuckin boring . like a game me and whip played the other day we got that bored we quit and u no how much whip loves his points he wont quit for shit , thats how bad that game was. maybe u dont mind them kinda games thats fines but for me there not its as simple as that
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:53 pm

_spunk_ wrote:
pi whats hard to say on vent lets switch and attack so and so wall's.? there nothing skillfull about it at all. i dont understand how u think thats a skill in it own right......... thats just a normal thing people will do. but what gnre do is run around the map building up doing nothing making the game fuckin boring . like a game me and whip played the other day we got that bored we quit and u no how much whip loves his points he wont quit for shit , thats how bad that game was. maybe u dont mind them kinda games thats fines but for me there not its as simple as that

A lot of players are really static and don't even analyse the situation to plan it out strategically, plus you and your teammate(s) have to trust each other and everyone has to carry out their end. I dislike being on teams where my teammates tell me "No I won't do that! It's noob/some other excuse", it pisses me off.

Having a well-trained, well-integrated team with good coordination for whole-team mobility isn't as easy as it sounds. Me and Kerk are one hell of an integrated 2v2 unit (although we act like dicks during game, ordering each other around while calling each other noobs), we compensate and communicate well, he knows when to fall back, I make sure to see if he needs me to push, fall back, switch, etc, we plan and strategize on the fly.

I know for a fact if I played with entirely random teams every game I couldn't have that kind of coordination with every player, knowing their strengths and weaknesses, being able to communicate and compensate on the fly like that, plus I wouldn't have the trust factor, where I know when I say "Kerk, go here and flank this, while I push it forward", he'll do it.

I'm not saying that I see a lot of high-ranks that are strategically stupid or that a loosely-coordinated team can't win, but really good strategic planning and tight coordination can win games, obviously you, Whiplash and Dan are fairly well-integrated as a team, you understand each others roles and communicate well, but can you honestly say that if you got plopped with people you barely play with you'd have that coordination?
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savorybeef

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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:07 pm

once again, its not a skill. its having vent and playing with the same teammate a lot
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:57 pm

The only way to really get good at teamwork is play and refinement though, making it something you develop over time, making it a skill. No one just plays with one guy, instantly clicks, knows all their strengths and weaknesses and can put that to use in their first game.

Most noobs have a lack of teamwork and team coordination, even those that play together regularly, because they lack the skills to really effectively make use of their teams strengths and weaknesses, intelligently double and pressure people, etc. Mostly because they don't have good strategic/tactical thinking.
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cmontuptim



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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:46 pm

We arent complaining about tactical movement...Or Im not at least...And from what i read spunk isnt either?
The complaining is about people who "RUN" ..
This is not the same as someone who splits their army strategically and holds 2 positions, or someone who uses extra pop advantage to help allies...

These are people who are basing - spamming seige - Losing when they get in - moving - repeat...
Im not saying never use seige...Those who have vsed my india know i love the seige ele first hit for map control...But after that I dont use them for a run tactic...I hold my position, or assist an ally...
A running noob would do this...Base on the other side of the base, and as his army dies be spamming ele cannons for round 2 of the same thing...Then repeat all around the base...
Its not hard to stop, but when done consistetly eventually it will work...From boredom, from delay in realising where the next base is, from the fact seige generally have good hp, from the need to kill old bases...

There is no skill in this...Regardless of what you think...
And you CANT compare real life war with a game...
In real life the outcomes are worth using tactics which get you the win at all costs...Your talking real lives and real countries etc etc etc

A GAME is NOT worth using any tactic to win...Its a form of entertainment, not real life war...We play for ranks and in some cases gloating rights lol...How is there any comparison? =\...The fact you can make the comparison at all concerns me ...
Maybe you need to take a step back and get some perspective on things? =\

Winning is nothing if you dont keep your standards to do so...

As for teamwork, I agree with Brett that it is a skill...Well...Maybe not teamwork itself, but being able to make CORRECT team decisions is something that requires skill at least...
Saying "Attack here" isnt hard, but if "here" is wrong then you could lose the game for your team as easily as winning it...
Coordination is important (and its virtually non existant when playing with randoms Sad...) especially in 2v2, its part of why i rarely do 2v2...
So many useless players out there its hardly worth the time unless you know the people lol
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Brett

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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:24 pm

cmontuptim wrote:

And you CANT compare real life war with a game...
In real life the outcomes are worth using tactics which get you the win at all costs...Your talking real lives and real countries etc etc etc

A GAME is NOT worth using any tactic to win...Its a form of entertainment, not real life war...We play for ranks and in some cases gloating rights lol...How is there any comparison? =\...The fact you can make the comparison at all concerns me ...
Maybe you need to take a step back and get some perspective on things? =\

Winning is nothing if you dont keep your standards to do so...

Winning is winning, intelligent play adapted from the tactics a real commanders would use seems perfectly fine to me. Loosing because I didn't think and strategize to the best of my ability seems retarded.

Winning is more fun than loosing, real life tactics, real life strategies and the mindset of real military commanders can all be applied to the play style inherent in treaty, the play style of treaty emulates a more real-world scenario of fielding a large army and applying smart strategy and command (in an RTS micromanagement) better than most RTS games, so the tactics and strategies of real-life warfare make infinitely more sense when adapted to treaty.

Besides, my comparison was for the purpose of COMPARISON, it's saying that people are stupid at how they apply tactics and strategy, they'd do whatever it takes to save lives and win a war in real life, but in treaty they won't do whatever it takes to save units, strategize and win as a team, the problem with what you describe as running is that if used properly (I.E. not using the same tactic OVER AND OVER like a Genderme spammer) can win games by making people move and chase, while your teammates secure a position and push up, etc.

Doing an idiot tactic with no skill, no thought to the broad strategy is retarded and what most people define as "running" falls under this category, people that just doppel raid all games, etc. They fail to reanalyse the situation, realising doppel raiding won't work and win it, whereas if they used Dop Uhlan to push up hard with a teammate while distracting someone with a 20 dop raid or something on someones base, they could cause confusion and disorientation.

I'm not advocating being a fucking idiot and running like a noob with no concept of strategy and tactics, I'm saying you need to get over your darn mindset of "oh I won't dop raid b/c it's noob" and start thinking "I could dop raid this, distract them, while overwhelming this guy", or "I could FB up at the base, pop some mortars/cav archer/jan, while putting 20 abus behind my teammate", etc.

Of course you guys still won't understand this, I think Kerk is the only one who truly gets what I'm talking about, because he employs it constantly in games, if he weren't going back to College today (Monday) I'd love for us to start strategizing and fighting more to really perfect our civ combos and civ strategies.

Also, if I hear this "OMG IT'S A GAME YOU DON'T NEED REAL LIFE TACTICS THAT WORK" shit again I'm just gonna ignore it, if you guys think that because I'd implement a concept I've learnt by studying military tactics (admittedly purely out of curiosity, military history is something of a hobby) I'm forgetting this is a game, you're out of your mind. It's merely applying a concept I learnt and agreed with.
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cmontuptim



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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:32 am

Brett wrote:

Besides, my comparison was for the purpose of COMPARISON, it's saying that people are stupid at how they apply tactics and strategy, they'd do whatever it takes to save lives and win a war in real life, but in treaty they won't do whatever it takes to save units, strategize and win as a team, the problem with what you describe as running is that if used properly (I.E. not using the same tactic OVER AND OVER like a Genderme spammer) can win games by making people move and chase, while your teammates secure a position and push up, etc.

This is exactly the point of this whole thing lol...
You dont need to do whatever it takes to save units...Its a game =\
Yes we want to win, but youve got to draw a line in the sand when its comes to HOW you are going to win...

What i described was using the same tactic over and over...
lol...Hence the word "repeat" at the end of it Smile
Its different to gerne spamming because thats countered by anticav...
How do you counter running?

You can wall...sure, but they are seige units, itll slow them down but not stop it...
You can make the counter (ie art/ri for dopp rush) but its slow, and you wont win like that...

The biggest issue with it is it doesnt allow for open play, if your vs a runner...Your in defence...And its not even real defence...Its chasing lol...
Its not a skillful or even semi team orientated in most cases...Its just noobs who dont know how to play their civ spamming seige...Dont get me wrong, if someone pushes me back, they deserve to be on offence...
But running to get your enemy on the back foot is like camping your daimyos in their base before 40 mins so they HAVE to kill them giving you map control...

There is no counter to stop a runner, its half the problem with it (the main reason being chasing is boring as fuck)
If someone decides to run, all you can do is defend and l hope they get bored before you do...Which doesnt happen because it takes a certain kind of person to even want to run in the first place...
Best way is to just resign and pest Smile

Saves time in the future ^^
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:40 am

Wall and FB all over, wall spam your own base with at least like 8 layers, slows them down and let's you react wherever they go, then just watch the minimap. Besides, doing whatever it takes to save units and thus economy will increase your chances at winning.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:37 am

cmontuptim wrote:
Brett wrote:

Besides, my comparison was for the purpose of COMPARISON, it's saying that people are stupid at how they apply tactics and strategy, they'd do whatever it takes to save lives and win a war in real life, but in treaty they won't do whatever it takes to save units, strategize and win as a team, the problem with what you describe as running is that if used properly (I.E. not using the same tactic OVER AND OVER like a Genderme spammer) can win games by making people move and chase, while your teammates secure a position and push up, etc.

This is exactly the point of this whole thing lol...
You dont need to do whatever it takes to save units...Its a game =\
Yes we want to win, but youve got to draw a line in the sand when its comes to HOW you are going to win...

What i described was using the same tactic over and over...
lol...Hence the word "repeat" at the end of it Smile

Its different to gerne spamming because thats countered by anticav...
How do you counter running?

You can wall...sure, but they are seige units, itll slow them down but not stop it...
You can make the counter (ie art/ri for dopp rush) but its slow, and you wont win like that...

The biggest issue with it is it doesnt allow for open play, if your vs a runner...Your in defence...And its not even real defence...Its chasing lol...
Its not a skillful or even semi team orientated in most cases...Its just noobs who dont know how to play their civ spamming seige...Dont get me wrong, if someone pushes me back, they deserve to be on offence...
But running to get your enemy on the back foot is like camping your daimyos in their base before 40 mins so they HAVE to kill them giving you map control...

There is no counter to stop a runner, its half the problem with it (the main reason being chasing is boring as fuck)
If someone decides to run, all you can do is defend and l hope they get bored before you do...Which doesnt happen because it takes a certain kind of person to even want to run in the first place...
Best way is to just resign and pest Smile

Saves time in the future ^^
and repeat more. on andes especially man its just so freakin boring spam spam spam. now if you guys had a different view of the game than maybe andes wouldnt be the only map on eso. if they released the game ith 1 map youd all say you got ripped off. use more maps guys. btw india otto not as powerfull on other maps because of spam times. lol!
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:48 am

_spunk_ wrote:
pi whats hard to say on vent lets switch and attack so and so wall's.? there nothing skillfull about it at all. i dont understand how u think thats a skill in it own right......... thats just a normal thing people will do. but what gnre do is run around the map building up doing nothing making the game fuckin boring . like a game me and whip played the other day we got that bored we quit and u no how much whip loves his points he wont quit for shit , thats how bad that game was. maybe u dont mind them kinda games thats fines but for me there not its as simple as that
um map control.

it appears someone doesnt like to work for their accomplishments.

"hey you stand there" im going to train,and train and train while you stand stand stand then when its gets to 12high we fight and spam spam spam with fast train times.

you know what spunk, youve landed yourself in the swinehootzone. your a dummie. i can tell just by the pic. time to ignore your ass! just my way of doing things.

yo bar boy clean that puke up.
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cmontuptim



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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:15 am

Ive been trying to get people to play less andes since forever...

and brett, your idea doesnt stop it does it?
you still end up chasing them all game...
kind of my point Smile
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:06 am

Buck the System wrote:
_spunk_ wrote:
pi whats hard to say on vent lets switch and attack so and so wall's.? there nothing skillfull about it at all. i dont understand how u think thats a skill in it own right......... thats just a normal thing people will do. but what gnre do is run around the map building up doing nothing making the game fuckin boring . like a game me and whip played the other day we got that bored we quit and u no how much whip loves his points he wont quit for shit , thats how bad that game was. maybe u dont mind them kinda games thats fines but for me there not its as simple as that
um map control.

it appears someone doesnt like to work for their accomplishments.

"hey you stand there" im going to train,and train and train while you stand stand stand then when its gets to 12high we fight and spam spam spam with fast train times.

you know what spunk, youve landed yourself in the swinehootzone. your a dummie. i can tell just by the pic. time to ignore your ass! just my way of doing things.

yo bar boy clean that puke up.

you look like a fuckin crack head . pitty me look ive hurt myself fuckin pissed up junky. put them 40's down and maybe u would'nt hurt yourself . i own u enough said your fuckin terrible when it comes to head up fighting your 1 clueless red neck so u keep on running and waffling your complete bollocks , either way its good for us cause we got summit to take the piss out of when we are waiting for games. them car windows need washing now run along u horrible looking junky cunt. i actually feel sry for your son having a dad who waffles so much shite must be fun for him
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:16 pm

cmontuptim wrote:
Ive been trying to get people to play less andes since forever...

and brett, your idea doesnt stop it does it?
you still end up chasing them all game...
kind of my point Smile

Excessive wall-spamming all over the map, 3-4 layers, an FB, more walls, etc, demoralises most runners and makes them push and spam more on the weaker points, thus limiting their movement more and making them more predictable. Nothing stops anyone from doing ANYTHING, it's like me complaining that someone's making units or microing their culvs or whatever, that argument is completely invalid.

It's like saying "OMG TRAINING CANNONS IS LAME YOU CAN'T DO THAT", it's just stupid. I think that most people just don't adapt right and play right against runners, so they get left in the dust, I really don't run for the sake of running, because as I explained it doesn't fulfil strategic goals, if you defend from it properly it will never win and they'll just burn out doing all that offence, but running/switching/misdirection/etc as part of an overall strategic goal is a useful thing to have in your bag of tricks.
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cmontuptim



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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:43 pm

Most things dont need to be stopped...
Someone making cannons isnt a lame ass boring thing to play against =\

Walling doesnt limit them, especially on andes with the trade route right next to your base 9/10 games...
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:47 pm

Who declares what's lame and what's not? It's all subjective -.-

Plus, in my opinion you fail... because if you can't respond to the threat with 4 walls slowing someone down then you really really suck at reacting to peoples movements and actions.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:10 am

Big difference between cant...and cant be fucked Smile

Sigh, things that are considered lame are from the general consensus...like OP...
No need to try and be insulting brett, its a contest you cant win...Some of us dont get insulted by people online Smile
Your opinion doesnt matter one way or the other to me mate...So keep it inside and save the energy it takes to type? Smile
<3
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:53 am

I'm just being a bit of a dick to make my point that it's all subjective and one thing you consider lame b/c you don't want to stop it isn't always lame to someone else. I honestly rarely have had a serious problem beating runners, most are very uncoordinated and me and Kerk just crushed them.

To be honest I'm even willing to go against OP, so long as I go OP too (or for nublets with no skill, Sioux Razz), although as a general principle I host my games no OP b/c I dislike people who only play French/jap/etc.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:31 am

_spunk_ wrote:
for some reason your confusing real life with a game...... id rather get beat in agme by fighting then be a lame arse and run around all over the place

i have a good one......you all remeber rockin robots? if not then they are the 2 robots in the ring that are imobile and can throw punches til ones head gets uppercutted and raises up.

now imo this is the way you guys are playing this game in nr40 mode. me i will never ever sit and take shots. im going to float like a butterfly sting like a bee. UNDERSTAND?
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:41 am

_spunk_ wrote:
Buck the System wrote:
_spunk_ wrote:
pi whats hard to say on vent lets switch and attack so and so wall's.? there nothing skillfull about it at all. i dont understand how u think thats a skill in it own right......... thats just a normal thing people will do. but what gnre do is run around the map building up doing nothing making the game fuckin boring . like a game me and whip played the other day we got that bored we quit and u no how much whip loves his points he wont quit for shit , thats how bad that game was. maybe u dont mind them kinda games thats fines but for me there not its as simple as that
um map control.

it appears someone doesnt like to work for their accomplishments.

"hey you stand there" im going to train,and train and train while you stand stand stand then when its gets to 12high we fight and spam spam spam with fast train times.

you know what spunk, youve landed yourself in the swinehootzone. your a dummie. i can tell just by the pic. time to ignore your ass! just my way of doing things.

yo bar boy clean that puke up.

you look like a fuckin crack head . pitty me look ive hurt myself fuckin pissed up junky. put them 40's down and maybe u would'nt hurt yourself . i own u enough said your fuckin terrible when it comes to head up fighting your 1 clueless red neck so u keep on running and waffling your complete bollocks , either way its good for us cause we got summit to take the piss out of when we are waiting for games. them car windows need washing now run along u horrible looking junky cunt. i actually feel sry for your son having a dad who waffles so much shite must be fun for him
speak english and maybe youll find respect homie. absolutely no grammar, words that are not even words. come on man. you sound like you never graduated high school.

this isnt to bash you, its just hard to understand ebonics when not exposed to it. not sure about where you live and your friends but serrious drugs that you speak of are not tollerated by me or any of my friends or family.
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PostSubject: Re: FIN vs RX7   Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:12 pm

Buck the System wrote:
_spunk_ wrote:
for some reason your confusing real life with a game...... id rather get beat in agme by fighting then be a lame arse and run around all over the place

i have a good one......you all remeber rockin robots? if not then they are the 2 robots in the ring that are imobile and can throw punches til ones head gets uppercutted and raises up.

now imo this is the way you guys are playing this game in nr40 mode. me i will never ever sit and take shots. im going to float like a butterfly sting like a bee. UNDERSTAND?

your shit simple!
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